Saturday, February 16, 2008

J. Matt Barber Tells You How It Is

I bet you thought you knew all there was to know about the Gay Agenda. But it turns out you may be mistaken! Luckily for you, the world's foremost expert on all things sinful, J. Matt Barber, has helpfully provided us with a cutting expose on those nasty, eeeebil homersexuals, courtesy of the Christian Worldview Network.

This isn't just about the stuff you thought you knew; the stuff they want the whole world to see. The happy, shiny, Queer Eye for the Straight Guy stuff of making dinners, personal appearance, and keeping a clean house. No, this is the nasty, dirty, sinful secrets, as only J. Matt Barber knows! Testify, brotha!
Balance of Power

Americans who self-identify as “gay” or lesbian comprise roughly one to three percent of the population.
Or maybe a little more, but so what? Your point?
Yet the homosexual movement — led by extremist homosexual pressure groups like the so-called Human Rights Campaign (HRC) — represent, per capita, one of America’s most powerful and well-funded political lobbies. Consider that HRC and the HRC foundation alone have an annual budget in excess of 50 million.
Yeah, somehow I doubt that. I've been a member of the HRC for years, and I only got a magazine for the first time today.
Through a carefully crafted, decades-old propaganda campaign, homosexual activists have successfully cast homosexuals — many of whom enjoy positions of influence and affluence — as a disadvantaged minority.
Wait, Barbie, I'm confused. You just said they were. You made a big stink about pointing out how gays were only a tiny minority. Now all of a sudden, one paragraph later, they're not a minority anymore?
They have repackaged and sold to the public behaviors which thousands of years of history, every major world religion and uncompromising human biology have long identified as immoral and sexually deviant.
Okay, my biology doesn't tell me anything about what is "immoral." And frankly, what "thousands of years of history" and "every major world religion" say is dirty and filthy really doesn't matter. Consider that this "history" you insist on appealing to is replete with stories of people trying to secure themselves in power and motivate the masses, often using religion to do it. And how do you get people to side with you? By othering someone else.

Oh, I'm sorry, is this geopolitical stuff too hard for Matt's widdle fundie brain? I'm sorry, never mind. Let's do something more on your level instead.
The Goal
Oh, yes, Matt. Please, tell us about "The Goal." I'm sure you've interviewed hundreds of HRC and PFLAG members to find out exactly what their goal is. I just KNOW that none of what follows is going to be based on ridiculous, unfounded supposition and wishful lies.
As with every major political movement, the homosexual lobby is pushing a specific agenda. It is often called the “gay agenda.”
Yeah, only by fundies.
At its core is a concerted effort to remove from society all traditional notions of sexual morality and replace them with the post-modern concept of sexual relativism. That is to say, when it comes to sex, there is never right or wrong. All sexual appetites are “equal.” If it feels good, do it.
Really? Oh, uh, hang on, Matt. Let me look through my HRC magazine and see if that's in there.

...

No, you know, it's the damned strangest thing. There's nothing in here about destroying right and wrong. Huh. Well, I know J. Matt Barber would never lie to me, so I guess the HRC just forgot.
Ultimately, the homosexual lobby’s primary objective is to radically redefine our foundational institutions of legitimate marriage and the nuclear family by unraveling God’s natural design for human sexuality.
Hmm....not in there either. But I'm sure ol' Mattie has a cite he can link me to so we can all see for ourselves, right?

Huh. Whaddaya know?
In so doing, they hope to elevate their own spiritual and biological counterfeit and establish a sexually androgynous society wherein natural distinctions between male and female are dissolved.
Would you look at that? Once again, not in there! Matt, if I didn't know you so well, I'd say you were pulling most of this out of your ass!

Okay, enough snark (for the moment). In all seriousness, I have met GLBT people who want to change our common perceptions about gender. But it's not, as Mattie here seems to think, some insidious plot to make life miserable for plain, average, heterosexuals who identify with their born gender. It's about helping us realize that not everybody fits a convenient gender mold; that not everyone born with a penis feels like a man.

And if Matt Barber would like to continue plugging his ears and pretending that everything on the gender front is okay, as it always was, nothing to see here (even when that's clearly not the case), that's his business. The rest of the world would like to march forward, if that's okay with him.
This creates cultural and moral anarchy.
Citation and explanation, please.
Plan of Attack

Ironically, sexual relativists are anything but relative.
What does that mean?
They are quite affirmative in principle.
Once again...what?
But the principles they foist demand comprehensive acceptance of homosexual conduct — by force of law — through federal edicts such as “hate crimes” legislation, the so-called “Employment Non-Discrimination Act” (ENDA) and by imposing government sanctioned “same-sex marriage.”
"Imposing" it? You mean telling people they're not allowed to marry the partner of their choice is not "imposing," but letting them do it, and letting people who disagree simply ignore it...that's not "imposing" on someone?
All such government mandates grant special protected “minority” status to those who define themselves by aberrant sexual preferences and changeable sexual behaviors.
Well, actually, Mr. GLBT Scholar, nobody "define[s] themselves" by their "changeable sexual behaviors." Did you ever have somebody shake your hand and say, "Hi, I'm Bob. I fuck men."?

But homosexuality is very real, regardless of how much you fundies would like to believe otherwise. Too bad they can't just flick a light switch and become straight the same way Matt can suddenly become a Concerned Woman for America.
These laws put people with traditional values directly in the crosshairs of official government policy.
Not at all. I support "traditional values," too, including not chewing with your mouth open, and saying "thank you" when someone holds the door for me.

The problem, Matt, is that you're disingenuously reframing the issue. Nobody hates you for having "traditional values," they hate you for trying to impose them on everyone else.
Throughout society, homosexual activists demand that homosexual behaviors not only be “tolerated,” but celebrated. (That’s what the euphemistic slogan “celebrate diversity” supposes).
Yes, as a kind of "fuck you" to people like the CWN, for trying to tell them they should be ashamed. Isn't it grand? If there were nobody trying to insult, belittle, and cast aside the gays, there would be no gay pride celebrations. In other words, you fundies created your own enemy!
They have masked their true political agenda by hijacking the language of the genuine civil rights movement and through the crafty and disingenuous rhetoric of “tolerance” and “diversity.”
Yeah, the "genuine" civil rights movement. Cuz today's world has nothing to do with what happened in the sixties, when people were spat on, insulted, beaten, segregated, and had their rights trampled based solely on personal characteristics they had no control over.
Anyone who believes the Biblical directive that human sexuality is a gift from God, to be shared between man and wife within the bonds of marriage, is branded “homophobic,” “hateful” or “discriminatory.”
Well...yeah? I mean...you are, aren't you?

Don't you love it when they try to strawman but you still agree with them? That's when you know they're off their rocker.
They are to be silenced by all means possible.
Which is why Matt Barber's columns aren't allowed to be published on the Internet.

You know, if it's the "silencing" you're so worried about, I can put your mind at ease. Nobody wants to silence you, Matt. Nobody will stop you from going around calling gay marriage sinful, ungodly, and damnable. I mean sure, we'd like to see it legalized in every state, but nobody's going to stop you from shouting your crazed fundie rants from the rooftops.

Unlike fundies, liberals don't tend to try and shut down people whose speech they disagree with.
In Their Own Words

What you are about to read is just a quick, though disturbing, glance behind the homosexual lobby’s lavender curtain.
And you know it's all going to be true, because J. Matt Barber said so!
Below are two of the central demands put forth by homosexual activists in their “1972 Gay Rights Platform”:

* “Repeal all laws governing the age of sexual consent.” (This should send a chill down the spine of any parent. It would legally allow pedophiles, and homosexuals who were so inclined, to access your children and teens for their own predatory sexual gratification — so long as those children “consented” to having sex.)
And as soon as you show me a link, showing this statement in context, I'll be properly outraged.
* “Repeal all legislative provisions that restrict the sex or number of persons entering into a marriage unit.” (Once marriage is redefined, there can be no logical or ethical objection to any conceivable “marriage” combination, including polygamous “marriages.” By watering down marriage, “gay” activists and like-minded politicos [usually activist judges] remove this foundational institution’s intrinsic value.)
Yada yada yada, "intrinsic value," "activist judges," blah blah blah. What you really mean is you don't like people having the right to do what you disapprove of. Too bad you're so damn uptight, Matt; life would be so much easier if you didn't have to worry about people disobeying you all the time.
Here are just a few of the demands the homosexual lobby put forth during the 1987 (Homosexual) “March on Washington”:

* “The government should provide protection from discrimination based on sexual orientation in employment, public accommodations and education just as protection is provided on race, creed, color, sex, or national origin.” ([ENDA] This would force all religious business owners, landlords and schools to abandon — under penalty of law — sincerely held and constitutionally protected religious beliefs and adopt a view of sexual morality that runs entirely counter to central teachings of every major world religion.)
Um, actually, Matt, no. Schools don't have a "constitutionally protected" right to teach anything religious, no matter how many "major world religions" think homosexuality is icky-poo. Schools are charged with teaching a religiously-neutral world view, based on evidence, reason, and science.

None of the groups or people you mentioned has to change their beliefs or adopt any view of sexual morality; they just have to stop acting like bigots. What they do at home is none of ENDA's business.

Oh yeah, one more thing. Religious organizations are exempt from ENDA.
* “Anti-homophobic curriculum in the schools.” (Translation: pro-homosexual, government-mandated indoctrination.
Translation back: Anti-homophobic curriculum in the schools.
This is already occurring in thousands of public schools throughout America. Children are being force-fed the absurd notion that male-male anal sodomy is a perfectly acceptable, “alternative” sexual “orientation.” This calculated propaganda continues to expand, despite the fact that the Centers for Disease Control and Prevention (CDC) has acknowledged that such behaviors place participants at extremely high risk for dangerous and often deadly infectious disease.)
Yes, absolutely. You can totally catch an STD from having anal sex. It's the anal sex that causes disease, not, you know, having disease. #
* “The government should ensure all public education programs include programs designed to combat lesbian/gay prejudice. … Institutions that discriminate against lesbian and gay people should be denied tax-exempt status and federal funding.” (This means churches, religious schools and religious businesses. Some jurisdictions, such as the state of New Jersey, have already begun removing tax-exempt status from church related ministries that refuse to provide “commitment ceremonies” to homosexuals.)
Cite please.

Anyway, I don't know how I feel about tax exemptions for churches; while I do think you should be allowed to be a bigot on your own time, in your own organization, I'm not terribly thrilled that the government gives you money to do it. Anyway, it's a moot point since I don't see any links here so I can't really evaluate what's going on.
* “Public and private institutions should support parenting by lesbian or gay couples.” (This is now being mandated in many states such as California and Massachusetts. In Massachusetts, Catholic Charities’ adoption service was recently forced to close down because it refused to assign children to homosexuals for adoption.)
Yeah, once again, Matt. It's all about not being a bigot. You should try it sometime.
The push for federal “hate crimes” legislation is another activist tool intended to silence traditional views on human sexuality and sexual morality.
Right. Sure. You can be arrested for a hate crime for saying something. Actually, hate crimes are just that--crimes. In other words, you have to actually commit a crime in order to be charged with a hate crime. So what Matt is saying is that he's being denied his First Amendment right to beat the crap out of a gay guy.
Similar laws have already been used around the world, and even right here at home, to persecute Christians and other traditionalists. For example, in 2004, 11 Christians were arrested in Philadelphia and charged with a “hate crime” for merely preaching the Bible at a public homosexual street festival. They could have served up to 47 years in prison.
Once again, Matt, it helps your point if you actually, you know, tell the truth. The arrested weren't "merely preaching the Bible." They were getting in people's faces, shouting insults with a bullhorn, and disrupting the proceedings (including part of an indoor event).
More recently, a Christian photographer was dragged before the New Mexico Human Rights Division for refusing to photograph a “commitment ceremony” for a lesbian couple because lesbian behavior is inconsistent with Christianity.
Okay, I tried, and tried, and tried to find an objective link to this article, but all I see are right-wing religious sites railing about how business owners should be allowed to do what they want with their business. I can't speculate on the issue, because I don't know enough about it, but I wonder why fundies always get all high on personal liberties as soon as someone tries to restrict their rights, but not when it comes to the gays?
Such stark examples of homofascist persecution continue to mount. And they’re by design. Noted homosexual activist and pornographer Clinton Fein addressed the “gay” agenda in a 2005 article candidly titled, “The Gay Agenda”:
I'm not going to waste time with this part. Although I agree with the stuff Fein wrote, I don't see much point in reposting it here. Clearly, Matt Barber doesn't, but that's tough shit.
The homosexual lobby’s goals have been clearly defined for decades. But for any goal to be successfully achieved, clever stratagem and sound methodology must be diligently applied.

In their manuscript, After the Ball: How America Will Conquer Its Fear and Hatred of Gays in the 90’s (1989, Doubleday/Bantam), Harvard educated marketing experts Marshall Kirk and Hunter Madsen meticulously laid out the homosexual lobby’s blueprint for success in what is widely regarded as the handbook for the “gay” agenda.
"Widely considered" by whom? You?
They devised a three-pronged approach that the homosexual lobby has masterfully implemented in subsequent years: Desensitization, Jamming and Conversion.

Kirk and Madsen summarized their approach this way:

* Portray gays as victims, not as aggressive challengers.
* Give potential protectors a just cause.
* Make gays look good.
* Make victimizers look bad.
Sounds fine to me. That's pretty much exactly how you would help people wake up and start seeing that gays are still Fundie America's whipping boys.
Desensitization

“Desensitization,” wrote Kirk and Madsen, means subjecting the public to a “continuous flood of gay-related advertising, presented in the least offensive fashion possible. If ‘straights’ can’t shut off the shower, they may at least eventually get used to being wet.”

As previously stated, glamorizing and normalizing homosexual conduct in our public schools is a full time endeavor. But the schools represent only one field of battle in the war over America’s body, mind and soul.
Schools? Where the hell did that come from?
With the aid of a willing mainstream media and a like-minded Hollywood, societal desensitization has been largely achieved. Blockbusters like Tom Hanks’ Philadelphia, the late Heath Ledger’s Brokeback Mountain, and television programs like Will and Grace and Ellen represent a modern-day fairy tale, creating a dishonest and sympathetic portrayal of a lifestyle which is emotionally, spiritually and physically sterile.
Really? Cuz I've known lots of gay people and they're mostly happy and successful. But I'm sure they appreciate your concern for their well-being, Barbie.
Reality is replaced with fantasy. Gone are references to, or images of, the millions of homosexual men wasting away in hospice due to behaviorally related diseases such as HIV/AIDS, Hepatitis and Syphilis. (Unnatural behaviors beget natural consequences. As Romans 6:23 says, “The wages of sin is death."
Matt, I've been over this once already, will you please try and listen?

YOU CATCH STDS BY HAVING SEX WITH PEOPLE WHO HAVE STDS!!!!

It has nothing to do with what sex the person is you're bangin'. It has nothing to do with whether or not you're married. Gay men, women, teens, married people...they can ALL contract HIV you dumb shit!
And gone are references to, or images of, men and women trapped in the homosexual lifestyle who aimlessly seek to fill a spiritual and emotional void through promiscuous and meaningless sexual encounters.
Yes, Matt, "gone" because your convenient scare tactics bear little resemblance to the actual truth. I'm sorry to disappoint you, but gay people aren't the sorry sight you wish they were to fuel your hate-filled agenda.
The homosexual group, GLAAD, even offers awards to the television networks that most effectively carry the homosexual lobby’s water. The more distorted and positive the portrayal of homosexual conduct and the more frequently the networks shows such portrayals; the more likely networks are to win the coveted awards.
You mean the more positive. Not the more "distorted and positive." Thought I'd fix that for you.
As Kirk and Madsen put it, homosexuals should be portrayed as the “Everyman.” “In no time,” they said, “a skillful and clever media campaign could have the gay community looking like the veritable fairy godmother to Western Civilization.”

Prophetic words from two very smart men.
Well, finally, we agree on something.
Jamming

“Jamming” refers to the public smearing of Christians, traditionalists or anyone else who opposes the “gay” agenda. “Jam homo-hatred (i.e., disagreement with homosexual behaviors) by linking it to Nazi horror,” wrote Kirk and Madsen. “Associate all who oppose homosexuality with images of ‘Klansmen demanding that gays be slaughtered,’ ‘hysterical backwoods preachers,’ ‘menacing punks,’ and a ‘tour of Nazi concentration camps where homosexuals were tortured and gassed.’
Well, Matt, I know you don't like it, and you're probably not as extreme as Hitler, but your views pretty well mesh with the Nazis opinion on gays. Yes, I'm aware of what a "Godwin" is, but let's face it--hate is hate.

And yes, let me reiterate this: I DO NOT believe that J. Matt Barber wants to exterminate the gays. And yes, this book is sounding a little bit extreme. But what, exactly, is his point? Matt pulls out this old book, dubs it "the handbook for the Gay Agenda," then proceeds to attack it as if his own proclamation was automatically correct?
“In any campaign to win over the public, gays must be portrayed as victims in need of protection so that straights will be inclined by reflex to adopt the role of protector ... The purpose of victim imagery is to make straights feel very uncomfortable,” they suggested.
I agree. Much as watching videos from the Civil Rights Era makes me, a white guy, uncomfortable, the Religious' Right's tactics against gays make me feel the same way.
But, perhaps Kirk and Madsen’s most revealing admission came when they said, “[O]ur effect is achieved without reference to facts, logic, or proof.”
Context, please. I don't believe people who quote mine and then expect me to get indignant over what they wrote.
And so words like “homophobe” and “heterosexism” were pulled from thin air, not because they had substance, but because they were effective jamming tools. Anyone who holds traditional values relative to human sexuality suddenly became a “homophobe,” a “hatemonger,” a “bigot.”
Yes, like I told you--you ARE homophobes. You ARE bigots. What part of this are you not understanding?

Not even churches are safe.

“Gays can undermine the moral authority of homo-hating churches over less fervent adherents by portraying [them] as antiquated backwaters, badly out of step … with the latest findings of psychology. Against the atavistic tug of ‘Old Time Religion’ one must set the mightier pull of science and public opinion. … Such an ‘unholy’ alliance has already worked well in America against the churches, on such topics as divorce and abortion. … [T]hat alliance can work for gays.”

And, oh, how it has.

I'm sorry, Matt. Are you arguing that fundies are NOT out of step with reality? Because you disagree with the American Psychological Association and the American Academy of Pediatrics. In fact, you had to go so far as to create a your own organization to replace the latter.


That's right, folks, the fundies disagreed with the mainstream governing body of pediatricians, so they went and created a different organization whose purpose was to agree with them! After all, they needed something to cite and give their ridiculous ideas authority!

Conversion

“Conversion” means, in the words of Kirk and Madsen, “conversion of the average American’s emotions, mind, and will, through a planned psychological attack, in the form of propaganda fed to the nation via the media.”

“In the early stages of any campaign to reach straight America, the masses should not be shocked and repelled by premature exposure to homosexual behavior itself. Instead, the imagery of sex should be downplayed and gay rights should be reduced to an abstract social question as much as possible. First let the camel get his nose inside the tent — and only later his unsightly derriere!”

That's right. I don't think too many people seriously want to discuss the finer points of gay sex.

So, as Kirk and Madsen both astutely understood and surprisingly admitted, homosexual activism is really a big game of “hide the ball.” In order to achieve widespread acceptance of “gayness,” they had to remove the focus from what homosexuality really is (deviant sexual conduct) and shift it onto the craftily manufactured specter of “gay civil rights.”
They're not "hiding the ball" you dumbass. They're shifting the focus to where it needs to be because what goes on in the bedroom is A) none of your business and B) irrelevant to the discussion.
In order to cut through much of the propagandist sugarcoating, one need only consider what two men must actually do in order to “consummate” a so-called “gay marriage.” Kirk and Madsen understood that. Most people are repulsed by the mechanics of homosexual conduct, but everyone is for “civil rights.” Of course, in reality, the homosexual lifestyle has nothing to do with civil rights and everything to do with conduct.

Therein lies the deception.
Oh my fucking God.


WHO CARES?


Who cares what "two men must actually do?" It has NOTHING TO DO WITH YOU!


Who's "hiding the ball" now, Matt? You're the one who's obsessing about gay sex--not because it's relevant, but because you want to gross people out and make them ignore the civil rights aspect. Matt, you should be ashamed of yourself.

But There’s Hope

There’s hope for people who are trapped in the homosexual lifestyle or who suffer from unwanted same-sex attraction.
Yeah there's hope. People with nineteenth-century values get old and die all the time. Just hang in there till they're mostly gone and can't vote anymore.
Part of our fallen condition as humans is that we are all subject to sin. Those who know the Savior of the world, Jesus Christ, are no better or worse than those who engage in homosexual sin.
Great. Then why do you spend every day sanctimoniously railing against them?
But through the loving and redemptive power of Jesus Christ, we can all find salvation from sin. So can homosexuals. “Gayness” is not an “immutable” or unchangeable condition as homosexual apologists would have you believe. People can find freedom from homosexual behaviors and even from same-sex attractions. It’s not easy, but untold thousands of former homosexuals have done it.
No, no homosexuals have done it. Not that there's any reason they should.


Matt, you're not quoting this study, are you? It's tough to tell, as you don't provide any links (of course). But whatever you're quoting, there's no proof gays can un-gay.

There’s also hope in the ongoing battle between the “gay” agenda and our national moral integrity. Concerned Women for America (CWA) endeavors on a daily basis to counter this destructive movement throughout all facets of culture and public policy.
Good for them. I endeavor on a daily basis to counter the CWA. Looks like we're in a good ol' Mexican standoff, huh?
With God’s help, we can turn back the tide of sexual and moral relativism that has both permeated our society and offended our founding principles.
Yeah, damn all that relativism! Can't we all just agree to appoint one person and have him tell us what our morals are going to be? We could name him J. Matt Barber!

23 comments:

Carrie said...

I still marvel that the mouthpiece for a supposedly WOMEN's organization is distinctly lacking a vagina. I don't know, maybe I'm strange, but I actually expect the loudmouth that runs the conservative equivalent of NOW to be a woman.

Unless they're being good little women and letting the men speak for them?

cognitive dissident said...

You did such a spectacularly hilarious job that I have little to add, except these two points:

The first involves Clinton Fein, who Barber claimed “addressed the ‘gay’ agenda in a 2005 article candidly titled, ‘The Gay Agenda.’ When I tracked down Fein’s original article, I found an explicit caveat:

“Despite the tongue-in-cheek nature of this piece, it can, and likely will, be taken out of context, and used destructively by bigots and homophobes with ill intentions.”

Bigoted homophobe Matt Barber managed to pull five quotes from Fein’s piece, thus showing that his hatred is matched only by his dishonesty. Perhaps that’s why Barber doesn’t link to any of his sources: He knows that he’ll be caught misrepresenting them, and relies on his audience’s lazy complicity in his deceptions.

The second point is Barber’s reference to the “1972 Gay Rights Platform,” which I found mentioned all over the wingnut portion of the blogosphere. Given their problems with factual accuracy, I decided to look for it from a more reliable source. Barber was bothered by the demand for the “Repeal of all laws governing the age of sexual consent,” which is represented here in its original context:

6. Repeal of all state laws prohibiting transvestism and cross-dressing.

7. Repeal of all laws governing the age of sexual consent.

8. Repeal of all legislative provisions that restrict the sex or number of persons entering into a marriage unit; and the extension of legal benefits to all persons who cohabit regardless of sex or numbers.

One should remember that “age of consent” laws, along with anti-sodomy statutes, were widely used (especially in that era) to selectively criminalize same-sex acts; in the absence of evidence to the contrary, this demand should be read in that light. NAMBLA, to the extent that it even exists, is as much a pariah among the LGBT community as among straights.

Jales said...

It seriously amazes me how much wrong this guy has. Not every major world religion disapproves of homosexuality. Unless he's only counting christian related religions, which I'm sure he is. Also historically it was a common practice in England to marry for heirs and keep a piece on the side for attraction. Sometimes said "piece" was of the same sex. I haven't seen a huge thing on women doing this, but many men among the nobility did. Then of course there was ancient Greece, where homosexual behavior was actually relegated to the middle and upper classes. Privilege of rank perhaps? Even their mythology from that time shows quite a bit of gay behavior from the gods (Zeus and Ganymede, Apollo and Hyacinthus , Artemis' lesbian tendancies). It wasn't until the Christians came along and denounced these practices that they became a problem.

And if you REALLY want to go with the whole "penis so fits the vagina it can only be made by God to propagate straight sex", I must also point out there are a couple of other places a penis fits in and thus, OBVIOUSLY mean they are to be used in such a way. That is a load of crap. You cannot claim that one hole is holy based on biology and then come back with "but not THIS one". If BIOLOGICALLY speaking, vaginal sex is obvious, so is anal and oral. Don't tell my husband though, hehe. Sorry for the crudeness of this paragraph, but well, it's true.

This also still doesn't cover why it's "unnatural" for humans to be homosexual, and yet innocent animals have been found to engage in homosexual practices. Animals can't "sin" and are by definition "natural", so how is it unnatural?

Sorry, but these types of comments really bother me. Barber obviously has no education whatsoever and is nothing more than an ignorant bigot.

Lith said...

What I want to know is why they always put "gay" in inverted commas?

Sascha Folterung said...

They put gay in little commas ('gay') because of a stink that a conservative Christian made when the word gay was officially changed to mean homosexual.

It was changed in like the 80's or something, and the oldest guy on the committee got pissy because he said that homosexuals were stealing and corrupting a word that was innocent and fair. Before the word became official language, it only meant homosexual when surrounded by the little commas.

Of course, Christian groups, backwards as they are, keep those commas pretty much just to be assholes. Also, you'll hear them use this statement a lot if you ask: "There's nothing gay about being 'gay'."

Sascha Folterung said...

Hey Watcher. I may just be dumb, but I can't find an e-mail for you or anything on the site. I was wondering if you could take a look at this article and maybe do a piece on it.
It's a bit confusing, but might have some nuggets worth plundering.

http://christiananswers.net/q-cross/cross-gaychange.html

Pbgh Jen said...

Why is this guy so obsessed with gay sex? And, why only m/m? He NEVER mentions what two women have to do to consumate a marriage as being a concern for him. hmmmm... good ole Freudian defense mechanisms at work here???

The Watcher said...

Sascha: I'll check that link out. I sometimes do take requests.

If you want to e-mail me directly click "View Complete Profile" next to the liberty bell at the top.

Clinton Fein said...

Thanks for dissecting that diatribe, and to cognitive dissident, for pointing out that every sentence Barber quoted of mine was written in the context of a satire.

As far as being a "noted activist and pornographer," perhaps he considers this pornography, although I suspect he's turned on by a different pursuasion.

Finally, I can't for the life of me imagine why he failed to include this agenda item from the very same article:

If you're male, give Concerned Women for America a raison d'ĂȘtre by fucking their husbands, sons and fathers. And of course, you dykes will know exactly what to do with their daughters. At least those that aren't already teaching us in our beds.

Eli said...

Dear Mr. Watcher,

Your rant on Mr. Barber was as enlightening as it was exhausting. You demonstrated yourself, once again, to be pridefully close-minded, ignorant and lazy. I don't mind that you felt the need to defend your practices against someone speaking out effectively against your beliefs, but your inability to respond to him with anything useful, thoughtful, or to show that you are not some angry pre-teen whose mom just sent him to his room makes me wonder why I even returned to your blog.

You have failed to show any evidence of why Barber is wrong. Sure, we got an earful of why you think he's a loon, but you never showed that he was incorrect, implausible or otherwise... wrong. I, for one, think you should try again because the, "Look at the stupid fundie who doesn't know as much as he should about gaydom" dances are getting old. Barber actually made several points, your coments to which were absolutely incorrect. I don't have time for all of them, but here are a few:

Watcher said: "Okay, my biology doesn't tell me anything about what is "immoral."" As a matter of fact it *does* but you choose to ignore it. Since you are so in tune with evolution, perhaps you could explain how the species will continue to survive, which it is obviously working overtime to do, if men keep procreating with other men? Even if "immoral" isn't a word you can stomach, there are others which also get the point across: abandoned, base, corrupt, crooked, dissolute, foul, fraudulent, inconstant, incontinent, incorrigible, unprincipled, wanton. In other words, biology, in preferring men and women to have sexual relations makes any other act "immoral" in biological terms.

Watcher said: "And frankly, what "thousands of years of history" and "every major world religion" say is dirty and filthy really doesn't matter." Here we have yet another example of a small group of people, and namely you, who are so threatened by decency that they throw off the yolk of an eternity of moral behavior so that they don't have to exercise restraint or discipline. I understand why you dislike the authority of God and His moral code, but trying to convince the rest of the world that your way is somehow superior to His way is downright silly. If you truly believed that what the rest of us had to say "didn't matter" you would not have devoted your entire blog to shouting us down.

Watcher said :"Consider that this "history" you insist on appealing to is replete with stories of people trying to secure themselves in power and motivate the masses, often using religion to do it." Yes, but if you consider how superfluous the stories of people being uplifted and benefiting from religion are, you get a much better picture of its importance throughout history. For every instance of one corrupt being in a religion, I can give you 100 holy and devout people who have made this world a better place.

Here is a great place to make my next point, since I can hear you whining about how you're going to need a link to back up that comment. If you were really interested in getting to the truth, you would have emailed Mr. Barber (his address is easy to locate at the bottom of the article) and asked him. Pompously shouting to your audience that you won't believe without a link, just shows how lazy, uneducated, and negligent you are. Your rant has no substance and lends you zero credibility, so you choose to base your arguments on Barbers lack of links. How clever. Use google for pete's sake. I did, and pulled more than enough satisfactory supporting information.

You can play dumb, watcher, but it makes one think you might not actually be playing. In fact, you question his questions and put on your stupid face instead of actually countering what he has to say. You put up your dramatic protestations, but you demonstrate that you have no interest in knowing TRUTH, only demonizing Barber. I realize that you think some genetic fate made you the way you are and I know that pride prevents you from ever considering that there might be another lifestyle out there for you. I also realize why you hate the people who speak up against your way of living. What you are too blind to realize is that the people you hate so much actually care about you and they care about leaving the world a better place. Again, they realize that allowing homosexuals to make all sexual morality relative will have damaging consequences to our world that far outweigh anything "global warming" could do.

Here's my final Watcher-is-wrong quote: "Unlike fundies, liberals don't tend to try and shut down people whose speech they disagree with."
Wrong-o. It has names such as "hate crimes" legislation, and the "fairness doctrine" and if you had a shread of intellectual honesty, you'd acknowledge it as such. You don't like what fundies have to say about your lifestyle, but in no way does it constitute a hate crime to speak out against your way of life. Just like every time you harass a fundie or a Christian for their beliefs and actually make it sound like you truly do hate us, we don't accuse you of a hate crime. We pray for you. And we try to engage you in intelligent conversation, which is really difficult with all of the protesting you put up.

spinetingler said...

>In other words, biology, in preferring men and women to have sexual relations makes any other act "immoral" in biological terms.


There is no biological term for immoral. Biology is amoral.
Biology is.

Ryan said...

"perhaps you could explain how the species will continue to survive, which it is obviously working overtime to do, if men keep procreating with other men?"

You make it sound like EVERY man is procreating with other men. Obviously not the case; since we still have a humongous number of men who don't, I'd say we have nothing to worry about.

Mr Caps said...

Eli I have two points to make:
1.
There are those out there who simply do not believe in God, and therefore to do abide to the moral code and authority of the bible or religious teachings. This does not however mean that they have no moral code, it is simply formed through different means.

2.
No one has the right to try and force their views on others. The same way that athiests must respect the beliefs of theists, so too must theists respect the rights of others to have their own beliefs and choices. I can't barge into a church and tell you to stop because I don't share your beliefs.

So it is not right to try and force your views on homosexuals and to deny them their rights simply because you disagree with them. Whether you agree with their choices is irrelevant.

The watcher is not trying to condemn, riducule or change Christianity or their beliefs. All he is doing is trying to prevent fundamentalists from trying to force their moral values onto others.

(Of course I may be presumptious in saying this and if so I apologise)

The Watcher said...

Mr. Caps: No, your interpretation is correct. That's a vision of myself that I try hard to project. I believe anti-theism is a form of fundie-ism.

Sorry to those of you who ARE anti-theist; I guess that's a point we'll just have to differ on.

eli said...

I believe Mr. Caps summed it up well: "No one has the right to try and force their views on others."

However, Mr. Caps, if you actually read Watcher's posts, you will note that this statement by you is false: "The watcher is not trying to condemn, riducule[sic] or change Christianity or their beliefs." In your next statement, you say that watcher IS "trying to prevent fundamentalists from trying to force their moral values onto others." Watcher has many times condemned and ridiculed Christians in his posts, and if you don't think that he directed all of his comments toward Mr. Barber as if to elicit a change in that author's mind about why gays aren't so bad after all, well then why did he do it? Also, trying to stop anyone from sharing their moral views is itself a type of coersion, so he's guilty on all charges. Even if he thinks it's okay if HE does it, because he's being picked on by all those mean Christians. Morality is not relative.

The article by Mr. Barber pointed out to other Christians that they must be aware of the force of the HRC to indoctrinate their children with viewpoints that are in complete opposition to the beliefs they have been raised with, and with which they are raising their children. He exposed the FACT that homosexuals are indeed trying to FORCE Christians to accept their lifestyles. And, unlike the Watcher, he provided concrete examples of how and where it is happening, as well as who is leading it. Maybe the Watcher as one person in that movement thinks it's cool for me to keep being Christian as long as I don't make him stop being gay, but the movement which he is a part of and which he furthers with his posts on this site indeed has its eyes set on decimating an entire religion, or at least remove its views. Tell me who's forcing who?

Whether you like it or not, Christianity has existed for 2000 years and the change it brought to the world was profound and life-giving. It even provided the basis for Mr. Caps' moral code, even though he would never name it as that special, "different means." But this is not my point. The point is that Christianity has existed for nearly two dozen centuries. The HRC was founded in 1980 -- just barely two dozen years. You've got a long way to go before your ideas will have the moral authority of the Bible and the redemptive message of Hope God offers. But hey, chin up. Even Christians had it rough when they got started, too.

Jales said...

, Christianity has existed for 2000 years and the change it brought to the world was profound and life-giving.

FTW, Christianity HAS existed 2000 years. However science shows us that there have been living organisms on this earth for far longer. Science has also proved that homosexuality occurs in nature, in animals. Therefore, if we're having an age contest: homosexuality wins.

Life giving? Christianity? Really? I would say they've done SOME good things, but they've also done quite a bit of bad. Christianity isn't life giving, it's just is. Christianity has TAKEn lives, but has yet to GIVE one. According to Christianity GOD gives life anyhow, so you're wrong on 2 counts.I will agree with profound though. Christianity has profoundly changed the world by spending quite a bit of time murdering as many unbelievers as possible.

spinetingler said...

>Christianity has existed for 2000 years and the change it brought to the world was profound and life-giving. It even provided the basis for Mr. Caps' moral code

Unless Mr. Caps was Jewish. Or Buddhist. Or Muslim. Or Hindu.

eli said...

Yes, Christianity is Life-Giving. And it is derived from Judiasm, as is Islam. Even if Mr. Caps is a Hindi or a Buddhist, if he was raised in the West, he was formed under the moral influence of Judeo-Christian ethics.

I realize that you are stuck on the term "life giving," jales, which you take literally to mean "gave life to" as in spawned a life form randomly. Actually, Christians give birth
too, so it isn't far off. But, when I say Christianity is Life Giving, I mean that yes, God
*IS* the source of life and He sustains us (thus, gives us life) on earth through the practice of faith. A Christian (or any other person) is life-giving when they act charitably towards another person to improve that person's quality of life. Christians have
been a major influence in increasing the civility and charity of humankind. The list of contributions of Christians that have improved the quality of human life is long. Here is just a scratch-the-surface list:
-The Golden Rule
-An end to Roman infanticide
-Hospitals
-Modern Science (yes, it started in Christendom, and arguably because of Christianity's emphasis on reason)
-Galileo, Newton, Copernicus, Kepler, Faraday, Mendel (these are just cherry picked, there are many many many more)
-Shakespeare, Tolkein, Bach, Beethoven (again, very short list)
-The Declaration of Independence and the Constitution of the United States
-The End of Slavery, Black's Rights & Martin Luther King, Jr.
-Women's Rights
-Dietrich Bonhoeffer
-Alcoholics Anonymous
-Mother Theresa

It is not facts, but anti-Christian propoganda that says "Christianity has profoundly
changed the world by spending quite a bit of time murdering as many unbelievers as possible." We don't have to examine this in much depth to realize it is a gross
mischaracterization of a religion that is built upon humility, charity, servitude and poverty. Interestingly, Christianity is actually one of the more-persecuted religions in history, and yet Christian opponents have no qualms about the icompatibility of their opinion with what history says about Christians. The bottom line is that there is insufficient evidence to back up this comment. You can examine any and all historical events in which any group of individuals were killed by Christians and you still do not have a collection sizable enough to properly categorize Christianity as murderous. Bottom line is that you are incorrect,
jales, and it is dangerous to spew words like yours without first considering their validity. You have been misled and misinformed, and if you are still in doubt, let's take a quick comparison at all the murder performed by atheists, which by the way has happened on much larger scale and has taken place in RECENT history. In fact, some of it happens even as you read these words. You don't have to think hard for the names of atheist dictators who decimated their own people in the name of garnering more power, more control and less
objection. Hitler, Stalin and Mao killed more than 100 million people in the 20th Century.

By comparison, The Crusades, Inquisition, Witch Trials, and even the Thirty Years War all
together did not kill more than 200,000 over 3 of last 20 centuries. Even if you calculate
that total to match current population levels, you still don't come anywhere close to the
numbers of people killed by atheists. No, I do not justify anyone killed by a Christian, a
Muslim or an atheist. I do however, satisfiably demonstrate that in no way do you even
approach the truth by accusing Christians of savagely killing non-believers throughout time.

Christians fight tooth and nail to save the lives of the most innocent and vulnerable among
us. The best hospitals are Christian and Jewish. The strongest and most effective
charities are Christian or were founded by Christians. The people who continue to drive this nation forward while much of the country wallows in victimhood and shouts its hatred of us from every orifice -- we are Christians. And if America is still a nation to be proud of in 100 years, it will be because of Christians. For every "Christian" you can pull out of your bag who failed in his faith and left a mark on our name, I can outdo you 100-1 in Christians who were faithful and left the world better than they found it.

eli said...

Also to jales:

Your comment about homosexuality in animals does not disprove God in the least. Homosexuality predates Christianity by centuries, you have not made a point here. It has been shown that there at least 1,500 species of animals who engage in activities that, using human social terms, can be described as homosexual. Animals quite often use these acts to establish dominance and authority within their herds. It doesn't make them "gay," it only means that animal sexual behavior encompasses aspects beyond that of reproduction. Their reproductive instinct always drives them to the opposite sex. And while we are at it, some animals also cannibalise their young, feed their children their vomit and eat their own feces. Just because the animals are doing it, doesn't mean we should.

Jales said...

Actually, you're wrong, many of the animals that practice homosexuality mate FOR LIFE. Therefore, when they choose to mate with one of their own sex, they are gay. They are accepted within their society. Thus, I wouldn't go as far to say homosexuality is "unnatural" as so many of you would like to have everyone believe.

This isn't a matter of feeding choices. There are animals that eat meat and others that eat vegetables. This is a matter of biology. It is no more unnatural for a person to give into their own homosexual feelings. Of course, Christianity is all about denying one's true self and ignoring the demands of the bodies they claim god gave us.

POSW said...

eli:

"Interestingly, Christianity is actually one of the more-persecuted religions in history,"

As a Jew, I remind you of all the suffering and cruelty your ancestors inflicted on mine. The Holocaust, pogroms, the blood libel, the lie that “the Jews killed Jesus”, the Spanish Inquisition, the Dreyfus Affair, countless burnings of the Talmud, the Crusades (“In 1099, when the Crusaders captured Jerusalem, they gathered all the city’s Jews into a synagogue and burned them alive.”), the yellow star (you don’t think the Nazis started that, did you?), forced baptism, ghettos, Luther’s On The Jews and Their Lies, the Chmielnitzki Massacres (try reading a description of these, they were absolutely horrific). As much as I hate playing the “I’ve been persecuted more than you” game, you started it, and I win.

Anonymous said...

Eli: Hitler was not an atheist.He was a Catholic, but needless to say he was against the Church at some points.As for the others, they did not murder under atheism's name.See it as similar to a Christian killing someone under various scriptures, and a person who happens to be Christian killing another.And what makes the deaths of 200,000 any less meaningful than the deaths of 100,000,000?

TB Tabby said...

I know, a month late, but I wanted to bat some of Eli's list of "Christian accomplishments" out of the ballpark.

"The Golden Rule"
The ethic of reciprocity was independently concieved by virtually every religion.
http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Ethic_of_reciprocity

"Hospitals"
The earliest known hospitals were in ancient Egypt centuries before Christ.
http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Hospital#History

"Modern Science (yes, it started in Christendom, and arguably because of Christianity's emphasis on reason)"
Tell that to Galileo and Giordiano Bruno.

"Galileo, Newton, Copernicus, Kepler, Faraday, Mendel (these are just cherry picked, there are many many many more)"
Yes, a lot of scientists were of Christian faith. That doesn't mean their religion was responsible for their accomplishments. Especially not in Galileo's case.

"Shakespeare, Tolkein, Bach, Beethoven (again, very short list)"
Religion has a place in art, sure...but it's not just for Christianity.
http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Religious_art

"The Declaration of Independence and the Constitution of the United States"
Not this "Christian Nation" crap again...deists, separation, "question with boldness", so on.

"The End of Slavery, Black's Rights & Martin Luther King, Jr."
One of the reasons slavery continued for so long after the Enlightenment was that is was condoned by the Bible. Heck, there are even some loons advocating it today on those grounds! Just search quotes for "slavery" over at FSTDT. And blacks were allowed to be persecuted because they were thought to be descendants of Ham, and cursed to be subservient.

"Women's Rights"
So how come the Bible is filled with so many verses depicting women as property? And how come so many people today who are against women's rights are fundies?