I'm not pretending that this is going to get some fundie to throw up his hands and concede, nor do I expect one blog post to be a cure-all for all debating woes. But I hope to help you sound more informed, more logical, and more rational than our usual redneck opponents. For the purposes of this lesson, I'm going to use the gay marriage issue as my example, simply because it's fresh in my mind. So here we go, The Watcher's Guide to Debating.
Step 1: Define Your Terms. This is the single best way to get started. It sounds ridiculous and overly simplistic, but it's amazing how true it is. You can't debate something if you can't articulate what, exactly, you're debating.
Remember to make everything both clear and specific. Both you and your opponent need to know what the issue is, and what each side's position is. What do you want to happen, and why? (Remember the why can be brief, even implicit. We'll get to our whys later, but for now, we just need to put forth some type of value.)
So how do we state our issue?
"Gay marriage is good."That's a terrible issue statement. What do you mean "good?" So what? Why is it good? What does its being "good" mean for society? And for that matter, what is "gay marriage?"
"Same-sex marriage should be legal."Okay, that's better. It's not perfect, but at least we now have some statement of purpose. We're debating whether it should be legal. And look! We've clarified what "gay" is. But we still don't have any reason. This is just a naked policy statement, with no values behind it. Why should same-sex marriage be legal, especially when our issue statement gives no reason for it to be?
"There is no reason a free society should ban same-sex marriage."Ah. Now we have a value. This is a "free society," meaning people should be able to do what they want, and not have it banned. You may also notice that, almost automatically, this flips burden of proof. Now, instead of giving a reason why something should be legal, one side needs to give a reason why it shouldn't. The debate at this point is clear, as we're going to have the anti side presenting its reasons and the pro side explaining why this is a free society, and you can't argue that.
The only problem now is that we're begging the question. We've begun with an incorrect premise, depending on how you define "a free society." Really, this isn't a free society, and I'm glad of it. There are many things we aren't free to do, such as murder, steal, and rape. We can't do these things because they infringe on others' rights, so we need to clarify exactly how "free" the society is we're talking about.
"Individual freedom outweighs any negatives that arise from the legalization of same-sex marriage."This is about as far as I want to take it. You may be able to put it more clearly, or more succinctly, but this issue statement works well enough for now. We have two clearly delineated sides: the "individual freedom side" and the "negatives of gay marriage side." Neither one is absolute, and they both know it. The freedom folks know that we aren't free to do whatever we want, and the antis know that gay marriage is not 100% without any value whatsoever. It is each side's job to tip the scales in his or her favor, knowing it will never be perfect.
Frankly, I'm starting to think that if debates started this way, both sides would sound smarter.
Step 2: Understand Your Opponent's Argument. You can't argue with someone if you don't know what they're getting at. If you have to, phrase it back to him, and see if he agrees. But the bottom line is, you have to know what it is that you're refuting. This helps in two ways: It keeps focused on the task, and keeps your opponent from moving the goalpost (changing what you have to prove in order to prevail.)
Michael Ejercito argued that the government looks at many types of relationships differently. Look at a limited partnership vs. a corporation vs. an LLC. So why should gay couples be treated the same as straight couples?
Okay, like you, my first thought upon reading that was "What the hell?" I didn't know what, exactly he was trying to prove, and I didn't have Mr. Ejercito handy to ask. So I did what I could do: read it over and over again until I did understand.
The point that he was trying to raise, summed up, is "the government has a precedent of treating different groupings of people differently, so it can treat a man and a woman differently than two men or two women."
Now, this logic is rife with fallacies. You can pick whichever one you want, but the upshot of it is that to debate a point, you have to know what value is being upheld. Here, knowing that he's upholding a simple statement of fact (the government can do this), you can argue simply "Why should it?" Don't be an idiot and chase him all over corporation law (like I did), arguing the differences between marriages and businesses. He can just keep moving goalposts until you get tired, so stay on track.
Step 3: Recognize a Red Herring. There are many, many types of fallacious arguments. Some are seen all the time, and others hardly ever make an appearance. You'll find a pretty comprehensive listing here, but I want to focus on one in particular. Fundies love to pull red herrings, and what concerns me most is that liberals too often take the bait.
A red herring argument is one which shifts the debate off the main topic and onto an irrelevant side issue. Michael Ejercito proclaimed, as many fundies do, that "Children do best in a home with a mother and a father."
Your first reaction (as mine was), is to jump all over this statistic and respond with stats of your own, proclaiming that two parents of the same sex do NOT, in fact, raise worse-off children than one man and one woman. Factually you'd be correct, but logically speaking, don't. Don't go down this road. If you do, you will have allowed the fundie to jump into the front seat and start driving you where he wants to go.
My response to the assertion is "So what?" The fact is, it doesn't matter whether children of gay parents do better, worse, or the same as children of straight parents. This is not a basis on which the government decides whether or not to grant a marriage license, so it's a completely irrelevant assertion: a red herring.
Let me unpack that, so you can see what I did there. In debating, each side will ALWAYS raise sub-issues. The way we created this debate topic, someone has to, as the anti side is charged with presenting sub-issues (negatives) to prove that they outweigh the pro side's individual freedom. What they are not asked to do is begin pointless detours.
To figure out if a topic is relevant or not, ask, "If I concede this point, will I be closer to losing the overall argument?" So, let's find out: let's concede. Fine, gay parents raise children who are worse off than straight parents. Is this a reason not to grant marriage licenses to gays?
The answer is no, it isn't. MANY couplings, by statistic or just common sense, would raise children who are worse off than other couplings. A drug addict who dropped out of school and an alcoholic cocktail waitress, for instance, probably won't raise kids as successful and well-behaved as a Harvard-educated doctor and a Yale lawyer from suburban Connecticut. And yet, we don't drug test a couple or check their educational status before they're allowed to get married.
A carnival stuntman and a stripper? Probably not going to raise kids who are as well-adjusted as a senator and a CEO. Should we ban them from getting married too? Do we?
Of course not. There is NO minimum threshold set for ANYONE regarding how "good" of a parent they need to be before we let them get married. So we define our opponent's central argument (Gays should not be allowed to marry because their children won't turn out well) and we discover that this is not a valid argument. In other words, being likely to raise maladjusted children does not constitute a reason to deny ANYONE a marriage license, so there's no point in debating it.
(Please note here: an argument doesn't work if it doesn't apply universally. If someone tries to exclaim "but teh queerz are diff'rnt!" they've already lost. If you have to resort to making arguments that only apply when they're convenient for you, you haven't made an argument.)
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There's plenty more I can get into, but I'm sure by now your eyes are bleeding, so I think I'll just end it here. As always, comments are welcome. And unlike Andrew Schlafly, I'll even allow ones that disagree with me ;)


18 comments:
Thanks watcher
I plead guilty to letting Mr. Michael E. leed me all round the ring as well. Some of those red herrings were just too tempting to pass up - well at the time anyway.
In my opinion Mr. E all but admitted he'd lost the argument when he refused point blank to answer some valid questions. The only reason for such refusal was that he saw he couldn't answer those questions in any credible way & still maintain the argument. Such a refusal smacks of implied dishonesty.
I would like to raise one point. The question was raised on one discussion board if we can't alter these people's minds then why argue at all. The reply was interesting. The guy asked replied that we're not aiming for our opponent to change his mind but for the argument to affect those reading the discussion while still sitting on the fence.
Anyway thanks once again for this deeply needed post. At least as far as I'm concerned.
I really like the point you made on how parenting ability doesn't mean anything for marriages. I never thought about it that way until now, and I'll be sure to use that when the argument comes up with me again.
I just wish that this would actually work. So many people won't let go of their deeply-rooted beliefs no matter how shattered their reasons and arguments become.
Hey Watcher,
Thanks for this great post on how to debate. This subject would make a great book. I’ve begun to look around for something like it, but most books on the subject get carried away with philosophical/logic jargon that, while all good stuff, make it really hard to find the practical nuggets I’m looking for.
I often hear those well-versed in logic and philosophy hauling out terms for what the argument is called, and then telling the fundie that that kind of argument doesn’t hold water. While it may be true, I don’t think it helps in getting anywhere with the opposition. It seems, in fact, to harden their hatred and mistrust of “elites” whom they feel are just trying to make them feel stupid. While making fun of fundies is a lot of fun, I’m quite sure it doesn’t really help – if getting them to see our point is actually our goal.
While you do indulge in that fudie fun, which BTW is why I love to read your blag, your discussion on the art of argument in this post seems much more practical. So hooray for pulling off both types of discourse.
Now, here’s one of many questions that I hope you’ll address in an expansion of today’s post: How do you respond when fundie arguments are made of up one lie/exaggeration/erroneous factoid/etc after another? While I may know that a particular statement is false, I may not know how to prove it, especially in a face-to-face discussion. It seems pointless to just keep repeating “that’s not true,” even if that is the case.
For example, in discussion of ID versus evolution – I’m not well enough versed in science to be able to pull corrections out of my hat. They seem to use pseudo-scientific jargon and cite studies that I may feel certain are bogus or misleading, but I don’t have the background to refute them. This is really frustrating. While on the internet, I could look up websites that could help me, but in person, that isn’t possible.
Obviously, we have to find ways to make them prove their assertions, but their proof is usually of the “it says so in the Bible” variety or just more false assertions. Because I’m not good at debate, I have usually just kept out of the discussion. However, as it becomes obvious that letting them get away with this sort of stuff is actually dangerous to our way of life, I feel that I can no longer just let these willful falsehoods stand.
So Watcher, thanks for the gruel. And as Oliver might say, “Please, sir, may I have some more?”
Christopher:The guy asked replied that we're not aiming for our opponent to change his mind but for the argument to affect those reading the discussion while still sitting on the fence.
Yeah, that's the way I see it too. Although I started this blog with the intention of simply venting, because the fundies with their stupid, bigoted, hateful illogic always made me so angry.
Anyway thanks once again for this deeply needed post. At least as far as I'm concerned.
I'm glad you appreciate it. I'm actually probably less happy with it, because I consider the whole thing condescending and pedantic. Which raises the issue: referring to something as "condescending and pedantic" is rather condescending and pedantic.
Sascha:I really like the point you made on how parenting ability doesn't mean anything for marriages. I never thought about it that way until now, and I'll be sure to use that when the argument comes up with me again.
I'm pleased to be of service!
I just wish that this would actually work. So many people won't let go of their deeply-rooted beliefs no matter how shattered their reasons and arguments become.
Probably not, but before we condemn those people, are you one of them? What would it take for you to A) abandon the beliefs that you currently hold and B) take up the opposite position?
People are people, and though the fundies frustrate me to no end (even to the point of actively hating them at times), they probably feel the exact same about us.
Just remember to be logical rather than dogmatic. And yes, I'm aware of what an ass I can be at times, and what a hypocrite that makes me. But if anyone wants to call me on it, they're free to do so.
Probably not, but before we condemn those people, are you one of them? What would it take for you to A) abandon the beliefs that you currently hold and B) take up the opposite position?
I grew up in a household where I didn't even know other religions besides Christianity existed until the fourth grade, and didn't once hear of atheism until after eighth grade.
Luckily, I found the internet, and after years of research, arguing, and experimentation, learned to accept my homosexuality and start believing in the atheist cause.
So..I've gone through some change in my life, and I'm willing to learn and adapt to new times and new information. It's that trait which keeps me thinking that I'm better than pretty much every fundie out there.
~”Probably not, but before we condemn those people, are you one of them? What would it take for you to A) abandon the beliefs that you currently hold and B) take up the opposite position?”
Actually, I’ve come about 180 degrees. I was brought up a Christian Scientist, quit going after my son was killed in a hit and run. Now, almost 30 years later, I’ve finally given up feeling guilty that I couldn’t “make it work.” What a relief! It wasn’t me, it was the whole stupid religion myth! But it took lots of research on the internet to get here. I don’t recall ever having talked to an atheist, so I didn’t know it was an option. Can you believe how dumb I was?
Also, until moving from Michigan to California in ’83, I don’t believe I had ever encountered anyone who was not straight. My small town was very homogenous – pretty much all white protestant. Heck, we thought the Catholics were idol worshippers! Wow! Were we insulated! I was taught to believe homosexuality was a mental disorder.
Now, I have wonderful gay friends who have lovely families and fun lives. I understand that gender is not an “either/or” but comes on a sliding scale of sorts. I don’t know if that’s absolutely accurate, but it seems to explain all the varieties of human nature. Again, it took evidence and education on the internet, etc.
So, yes, I have abandoned some pretty core beliefs – on the basis of evidence and education. Unfortunately, fundies have built in some fail safe measures so that argument, evidence and education don’t work. If they even consider another point of view, they think it’s Satan trying to get them. At least, I never had that attitude to contend with.
Christian Science does not take the Bible literally and does not do the whole trinity/Jesus is God thing. They also pray “Father-Mother God,” which means they don’t consider God exclusively male. We didn’t go for original sin, heaven and hell and all that, so perhaps I was already more open to reason.
I’ve only discovered blogs in the last few months, and I’m having a ball! Thanks all, for the mental exercise and fun!
Well, okay, Anfractious and Sascha. It sounds like you both did come to your opinions fairly productively. Can't ask for more than that.
Anfractious, I'll get to your questions a little later when I have more time.
Marriage is a basic civil right that should be attainable by all Americans if they choose. For those who are uncomfortable with gay marriage check out our short produced to educate & defuse the controversy. It has a way of opening closed minds & provides some sanity on the issue: www.OUTTAKEonline.com
Since you mentioned logical fallacies, I thought I'd link to Extant Dodo's primer on the most common fallacies used by creationists.
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=EXMKPvWqgYk
Thanks Watcher, I’ll be looking forward to your next installment.
Thanks also TB Tabby, for the logical fallacies video link. Good information. I agree that it’s necessary for us to be aware of these fallacies in order to recognize when they are being thrown at us. However, we need to go a step further and internalize good arguments that refute those fallacies. For instance, when is the last time you said to a Creationist, “Hey, that’s an appeal to authority, so it doesn’t hold water,” and they said, “Oh, well okay then?” What they need is to be shown how their authority is flawed.
That’s where it gets difficult. I’ve spent a lot of time investigating science websites, and slogging through articles on phylogeny and homology, entropy and the II Law of Thermodynamics. I have satisfied myself that biologists know what they’re talking about and Creationists are full of hot air, but I certainly can’t explain it satisfactorily to anyone else. Besides, even if I could explain in detail all about the bacterial flagellum or the flaws in the “perfectly designed human eye” their eyes would just glaze over and they’d go back to repeating arguments like these:
“No one was there back then, so scientists don’t really know how it happened. Scientists are just guessing at this stuff. There are no crocoducks. Somebody had to set off the big bang. Carbon dating is inaccurate. How do we know that light always traveled at that speed? Maybe it was different back then. Scientists keep changing their minds about the science, so obviously what they’re telling us today will be wrong tomorrow. There are gaps in the fossil record, so God did it. It says so in the Bible.”
I’ve had otherwise reasonable, educated people use exactly those jaw-droppingly moronic arguments. Whether I can identify each of their logical fallacies doesn’t seem to matter. As a matter of fact, check AIG “Should We Teach Evolution?” for June 6, 2008. http://www.answersingenesis.org/articles/2008/06/06/feedback-teaching-evolution and you’ll see that variations of many of these arguments are the author’s mainstay. Even after years of biologists trying to explain the basic science and debaters pointing out the logical fallacies in their statements, it doesn’t make a dent in the willful ignorance of idiots like that.
I guess my point is I’m looking for good ways to put them on the defensive for a change. They are the ones creating the controversy; they’re the ones making the challenge. We should make them prove their theories – er, sorry, absolute truths.
My head hurts. Ya think it’s because of the II Law of Thermodynamics?
Hey Watcher,
I hope that my debate tactics were not too problematic for you, even if I disagreed with you about how to address M. Ejercito's polygamous point.(And I hope my explanation of that respectful disagreement was clear.)
Being gay, the issue hits close to home and I can easily get emotionally involved in the discussion. But I hope I was able to argue somewhat successfully at least and make clear concise points.
However if you feel I am not adding to the discussion in a way that you would prefer, please let me know. I can go elsewhere to discuss and comment.
Thanks for the great blog either way.
Oh God no, I'd never ask anybody to leave! Especially not a reasonable, friendly, well-spoken guy like you. If you make even the most minimal effort to play fair around here, I have no problem with you. Even if you're a fundie. This post wasn't directed at anybody, I just wanted to get on my high horse.
Anfractious, who has been waiting patiently for an answer: Unfortunately, I don't have a silver bullet for you. If you engage in creationism debates, you have only two options. You can learn the facts, or you can lose. I wish there was some way to make it easier, but there's really no way to go toe-to-toe with someone if you're not as well-versed in the subject matter as he is.
But you seem to have dived in head-first into the subject, and no doubt, the more you do, the more you learn. The problem with debating science is that it's so fact-heavy, that the debates always come down to "It is!" "It isn't!"
Of course, creationists employ the same logical fallacies the rest of us do. TB Tabby was kind enough to show us some of the more common ones, but too many creationists are smarter than your average VenomFangX. They'll spout lots of pseudoscientific crap, with big words and citations. To other pseudoscientific crap.
You did ask how to switch the debate around, and that's a question I CAN answer. The person making the assertion always has the burden of proof. So, you need to establish your evidence first, thus making the creationist the one to assert something (e.g. "You're wrong.")
Give a fossil record. Tell how old the bones are. Tell how you know. Tell where the transitional fossils are (my usual answer is "EVERY fossil is a "transitional fossil!")
The point is, if you establish what you know, the fundie now needs to refute it. He/she can't construct a wall of argument, because they need to show why YOU'RE wrong, but you're not.
I hope that answered your question; much to my ol' man's dismay, I'm not a scientist :)
Thanks Watcher!
When I was in high school and college I was on the debate team. I'm a good debater, but there was one guy on the college team who was magnificent. He could move an audience to support any proposition and he could out-argue almost any opponent. He once told me that a well-placed joke was worth more than any number of facts.
I never try to argue face-to-face with creationists and IDers. The last formal training I had in biology was in 10th grade, over 40 years ago. A knowledgeable creationist could wipe the floor with me because he'd know more about the subject than I would.
The problem with most debates is that you'll win if you're a better debater than your opponent. It doesn't matter what you're debating, if you're more knowledgeable, more glib, or even can put a good joke in at the right time, you'll be likely to win.
I don't even bother arguing evolution, because my last science class was about eleven or twelve years ago and I hated the subject to begin with.
Now the pagan roots of Christianity... as an amateur comparative mythologist/theologist with a strong interest in history and an undergraduate degree in literary studies and writing at a reputable (non-Christian and Australian) university, that I can argue, if I so choose. I usually don't, because my brain hurts sinking to their level.
And don't think that only religious nutter-butters are anti-gay marriage. My eclectic spiritualist mother, whom I have to live with (long story), believes gay people shouldn't marry, all women are bi-curious (after I told her I was bisexual), and that children raised in same-sex relationships will turn out gay and/or confused. She is also racist (I won't share her comments about Asians or Aboriginals), sexist towards men (okay, the men in her life have sucked) and very anti-intellectual at times (I want to be an academic).
I love her dearly, but this woman is rabidly anti-religious, especially organised religion... yet she spouts beliefs which would make a fundie proud.
It just goes to show discrimination can come from ANY background.
*hopes she hasn't scared too many people*
I guess my verbosity has led to my obfuscating the point I was trying to make (or it would have if I actually really knew the point I’m trying to make). I admit to foggy thinking upon the subject, so it has clearly (or still more foggily) murked up my writing.
Here’s the thing. I guess I’m gradually coming to the conclusion that arguing with Creationists – or whatever they’re calling themselves these days – is of no direct use whatever. You can’t beat them. If argument is based on science, I’d have to conclude that if the likes of Dawkins, Dennett, Myers et al can’t convince ‘em, I’m sure I couldn’t, In the article on the AIG site that I noted in an above post, the author actually agrees to the scientific evidence, but says it’s the interpretation of the evidence that’s the problem. That, and the inerrancy of the Bible, of course.
Out of the other side of my mouth, I insist that we must continue to state our case or we will allow our society to slide into a Neo-Dark Age. Fundies are mounting an incredibly comprehensive, well-planned and lavishly funded assault on reason. Our only hope is to educate the younger generation so that they can’t be sheeplized as past generations have been. By the looks of it, we may be gaining a bit on that front, but there’s too much damage being done today to wait until young fundies grow up, and hopefully out, of the current cretinization efforts.
Michael, your suggestion of making a joke in response to their arguments seems like it might be a good approach. After all, they are experts in making fun of anything they disagree with, so I’ll bet they’d be vulnerable to it too. Remember poor ol’ John Kerry? They literally destroyed him by making fun of him. Besides, snark is fun. I love reading Watcher’s cheeky rebuttals in this blog. It’s one of the first blogs I ever started following because fundie-mock is just so darn hilarious! On the other hand (or out of the third, or is it fourth, side of my mouth?) I don’t think snark is necessarily the best way to convert really committed fundies to our point of view.
Guess I’m still looking for a better way to approach the problem. Maybe arguing the science is not the issue. Maybe the issues are “teaching the controversy” or forcing ID to be taught at a high school level before it has been established as a core science or the fact that science does not gain legitimacy by legal means, but by proving itself to other scientists, or pointing out the impracticality of teaching other creation myths that must be taught if we teach ID, etc.
So we (rationalists, scientists, humanists, atheists, non-literalists, etc) have a long way to go to figure out some kind of winning strategy. I don’t think we’ve come up with it yet – other than just waiting for them to die out. You don’t win arguments with facts, but with gut level emotion. The person you’re arguing with has to want to agree with you. Maybe that’s the ultimate goal. We have to make them want to be like us. Any suggestions?
Yeah, I think it is very worthwhile arguing with some of the Fundies who come here.
I remember arguing with one here a year ago or so and eventually reaching some kind of mutual understanding. That particular Fundie seemed to open up the more we talked and it made the experience feel productive.
With somebody like Michael E. that isn't gonna happen. But I do think he left here knowing that he had no real argument for his beliefs about gay marriage. And, yeah, as a gay guy who has dealt with severe homophobia, it kinda felt good to lay into him a bit. My bad.
Good to know that sometimes it pays off talking to fundies. And more good news may be found here: http://www.edge.org/3rd_culture/paul07/paul07_index.html Why the Gods Are Not Winning, by Gregory Paul & Phil Zuckerman at Edge.
Actually, there are lots of uplifting articles at Edge. After spending some time at Talk to Action, where they post articles about the undue influence of some really scary fundies, it’s a relief to discover that if we just keep on keepin’ on, it’s likely that the US will follow other developed countries and fundies will just disappear as a matter of course. Sure hope so.
Anyway, I’ve gotten some good ides here. Thanks all.
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